The most read post on this blog is about Arnold Murray’s doctrine of the serpent seed. Since it gets so much traffic and venom (no pun intended), I thought it would be good to update it. Some of the links are no longer working, the youtube video mentioned in the comments has been removed, and Shepherd’s Chapel has updated their website. By the way, it is hardly reasonable to call this a “bash on Arnold Murray site,” since there are roughly 100 posts & only two (counting this one) discuss Murray.
There are many comments on the old post, but none actually addressed a question that I asked. What does “Kenite” mean? On his “Answer to Critics” page, Murray states:
What about the use of the word Kenites? It is a Hebrew word that has only one meaning, “sons of Cain.”
Strong’s Concordance and the Brown-Driver-Briggs’ lexicon do not give this definition. None of the commenters addressed this issue (other than Kendall Rycroft, who simply says that I am wrong), this is probably because they just pasted in comments they previously posted on a “I-know-Murray-is-right-because-I-can-look-up-words-in-Strong’s-concordance-and-anyone-who-criticizes-him-is-Satan’s-seed” forum (e.g., Bill). Strong’s concordance is a valuable tool for Bible study, by the way, it is not my intent to disparage it. I plan on addressing its value in my upcoming post of Arnold Murray.
To help me with the next post, I would like to ask two questions for my commenters.
- Could you name a source (other than Arnold Murray) for the word “Kenites” meaning “sons of Cain”?
- Are there any printed materials or materials that Arnold Murray has written online?
I asked for printed materials because I do not have the time or desire to go through a lot of audio messages. I will be glad to compare Murray’s own words with the teaching of the Scriptures. I realize there is some information on his website, but there is really not much there. Any additional sources would be appreciated.
About commenting:
- If this is your first comment, I will have to approve it before it is public. If you have had comments approved in the past, it will show up immediately.
- I am looking for resources in this comment thread, not arguments. If you think Murray is right, then you can post your arguments on my next post about him.
- Don’t expect me to answer comments on this post. I will on the next and I’ll give you a chance to defend Murray…
Thanks in advance!
Jack Lamb
If my memory serves most modern editions of Strong’s Concordance took out the Kenite = Cain connection. Murray actually tells people to buy a specific edition of Strongs that still has the Kenite definition of sons of Cain in it. I don’t remember the specifics of that particular edition.
Here’s a reference from my E-Sword edition of Strongs, for what it’s worth:
H7014
קין
qayin
kah’-yin
The same as H7013 (with a play upon the affinity to H7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe: – Cain, Kenite (-s).
James, Thanks for this info. I looked in my hardback Strong’s and did not find that definition. The E-Sword edition does not define it as Kenite; it only denotes that the word is translated in the KJV as Cain, Kenite, or Kenites. That’s what the words after the :- mean
The word for Cain and Kenite are obviously linked, but that does not mean they are speaking of genetically linked in all cases. The origin of the word ties to something being acquired the first time. Therefore Eve’s ignorant / decieved statement “I have gotten a man from Yahweh…” She acquired her “FIRST CHILD”, sa the Strong’s definition points out. SO, the word CAN be pointing at the lineage of Cain at times or Cain himself, but it at other times has nothing to do with Cain or his lineage and is pointing at the idea of FIRST CHILD or ACQUIRED or GOTTEN from Yahweh by the mother. A different way of saying ‘firstborn’ than the usual.
JETHRO is to had descended or RATHER had been a “kenite”. Folks, MOSES MARRIED HIS DAUGHTER!!! Do you understand the danger of what you claim when you point at Zipporah and claim she is unfit? JETHRO was an ISRAYLITE of the lineage of JOSEPH. Therefore, Jethro is an Israylite that had left Egypt before slavery, set up camp in Midianite territory, and formally ETHIOPIAN territory, therefore Zipporah is termed both Midianite and Ethiopian BY TERRITORY, NOT GENETICS. By the way, Midianites and Ethiopians would not have been the same genetics, so it MUST be refering to territorial and not genetics. See christianparty.net forum for more info on why Jethro was Israylite. Also Book of Jashur.
I don’t think God is teaching us that all Kenites are bad, because in Jonh 3:16 God gave His Son so whomever believes will be saved. I think He wants us to know the serpent seed and his decendants because of the false teachings and their goals to bring about placing satan on the Throne of God. Read and study teh first 3 chapters of Revelation. Pay close attention to the church of Smryna and Philadelphia. Pay attention to the content these two church taught. All souls that came from abovefrom God and through the womb has a chance of salvation. Study Matthew 3:3
You people are not searching this out in study! Kenite is not a “Jew”. The term Jew only came about after Jacob which was way after Cain. Those of you who wish to make this into a discussion of strife and division are only hurting yourselves!
It will also be obvious that yall do not study with the Key of David, nor know the basics of the Ages. And there are several versions of the strongs and the oldest and the newest do list the proper meaning of the Word kenite. “Son of cain” which can also be understood in the context of the Innerliner.
If you people who bother to study the word you would see the overwhelming evidence of who and what the Kenites are and what their actions have been in the word. You would see that the Mark of Cain is visible with them even in the Nt. and you would see the two churches Christ found no fault with in rev (2&3) taught this very thing.
and to say that those who hold these truths as self evident label all who disagree serpents or Kenites is just bad information and untrue. there are a lot of nut cases out there and you can not steriotype all cause of one.
so it seems many just have their eyes closed to certain truths and are not drawn to study or embrace such. To each his own. This is not an anti sametic teaching and even tracks back to early Judaisim. This truth is as old as flesh man.
Ruach
You are very correct in what you say, Kenites are not Jews. They infiltrated the tribe of Judah and claim to be Jews but are of the synagouge of satan. Read Jude 1:4, Rev:2:8-11 and Rev:3:7-13 and you will see that they pretend to be Jews. Understand that satan nor is angels knows the plan of God or he (satan) never would have been so set on crusifying our Lord and Savior. Study and understand the key of David that is spoken of in Revelation 3:7. Understand and know why they are pretending to be Jews and from the tribe of Judah.
Oh, I see. people are welcome to bash but all coresponding responces and documentation rarely if ever make it through the filter of the moderation here. That is a good sign that someone embraces pride and is perhaps filtering truth while encourageing bashing (strife and division). Yeah that is very Christian like, NOT. The truth still remains that there are those of use who do study and recognise the Ruach. There always will be. We can’t be silenced. and truth is out there for whomever seeketh it in their hearts. Personally I think the tactics and context of those who run this site are Spam. The only reason you get any views is cause you use the titles of truth teachings and that their are many who seek to cover up what has been revealed. This is a joke, and since my prior post uses evidence to show such I will not look for it to be accepted by those who run this circus. I hope all grow closer to god and recieve all that is coming to them in due time. God’s will shall be done and judgement starts at the pulpit! ^1
Shalom..
From what i understand.. Kenites are descended from Canaan.. the descendent of Ham.. Jael was a cool lady.. a Kenite if i correctly recall.. The Word warns us not to become bogged down by endless geneaologies..
Wrong! The land of Canaan was were God palced all of the children and decendants from the fallen angels and gave the commandment to Israel to go into the land (which was the land of promise) and wipe out all the inhabitants down to their children and no one was to be left alive. Needless to say Israel failed miseralbaly.
George said: “The land of Canaan was were God palced all of the children and decendants from the fallen angels”
Do you have any reference for this in Scripture?
Another doctrine heresy lie from the pit of hell.
Another example of Modalism. Murray not only teaches these false blasphemous doctrines about from the Bible but also denies the Trinity too. Another eternal disaster snare and stumbling block to people who are accepting this.
Arnold has it right. For anyone who is interested in “The Word”, and getting it right, Go and study with him and use a King James Bible. The Holy Spirit is with all who study with him. And, the Simple Truth is, he has it right. Amen.
I have sudied with Pastor Murray as well as lots of other teachers. I have never heard him or any of them deny the Trinty. 1John 3 says who is a lier except one that denies the Christ. If a person has not really studied the Bible and kind of go alone with some one tells them is denying the Christ. Jesus is the word of God and if you have never read it and studied it, then tell me who is teaching and spouting blasphemy.
@SanAntonio Prayer Warrior
I love the Word and the King James Bible. The Holy Spirit is with all who have been born again. God teaches us to evaluate whether teaching is correct or not. Simply saying he “has it right” is not much of an argument. If you are intent on proving this, perhaps you could help me by providing answers to the post above…
I thought I would bring a non christian view to this although I am a christian. Maybe a non christian could help those doubters know that Pastor Murray teaches is truth. I have studied our presidents of the USA linage for some years now and all of them in their lineage can be traced back to the lineage of cain. Oops now what. The illuminati of which all of our presidents are members are only of the lineage of Cain. That is one reason why they are so interested on the internet to know our lineage and keep track of their own. It also helps them keep track of their enemies, namely us.
I am a pastor as well and have been now for some time. I have studied many many hours every day for 26 years and I know the word well and I know my God well and I know my Enemy well.
What is so hard to believe here?
Study yourself and you will see. Check the lineage of your Royal ones and you will see who the Kenites are.
Also before you are quick to jump and judge be careful. The times are very tenuous now and you surely do not want to be judged as you judge others. Do You? Study and then comment or better yet study and then ask questions. A little knowledge is a danger thing especially when you judge one of Gods own.
I will be happy to answer questions of any one who asks.
Kathy, your comment is bizarre. Cain’s descendants perished in the flood. Noah was from the line of Seth (see Genesis 5). Your comment also has nothing to do with the questions posed in the post. Did you even read it? If you “will be happy to answer questions of any one who asks,” then you could start with reading the post above and commenting on it. Any further comments off topic will not be published.
Kathy
Kathy i agree with you, How many Kenites are
in Jerusalem waiting for anti-christ to come.
I know we are to support Israel the 12 tribes
God said we are to get out of thier because he
well destroy it after Anti-christ comes
Are we to keep supporting Israel at thus time
with all the trouble over thier.
Erna
The Kenites
Who are the Kenites? They are a race of people who exist throughout the entire word of God. Surprisingly, most people don’t even know they exist or who they are. However, identifying them for who they are and knowing their role is pivotal to understanding God’s word. The word Kenite, if fully translated instead of transliterated, means sons of Cain. As with a lot of subjects in the bible, people are taught man’s word and not God’s. This leaves them unaware of so many truths so simply put forth by our Father. We find there is plenty written concerning the Kenites throughout the Word to document these sons of Cain, if we let God do the teaching and not man.
Did the Kenites make it through the flood? Yes they did. Kenites claim to be Jews but they are not. Jesus Christ was talking to some in John 8:42-47 and we read in Revelation 2:8-11 and 3:7-13 that they will be here right to the time Jesus Christ returns. Just so no one gets the wrong idea, the true Jewish people are of the tribe of Judah and part of God’s chosen people Israel (Genesis 49:1-28 and Isaiah 44:1). For the sick people in this world that feel they need to rid the world of the Jewish people, you are harming God’s chosen people and you will pay!
In Genesis 6:19 God told Noah “And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Now, if all the races were created on the sixth day and in Genesis 6:3 God said, that man was flesh also. We know that Noah and his sons did not repopulate the whole earth. If they did then the educated me with documentation
Cain’s descendants perished in the flood. No doubt other peoples throughout the centuries have been referred to as Kenites, but they are not the descendants of Cain.
God put a mark on Cain a swore sevenfold vegeance on anyone that killed him. God had a reason for keeping Cain alive and his decendants alive in this earth. I believe the flood of Noah was only to wipe out all the giants and hybrids that were born to the daughters of man from the sons of God(Gen.6:1-6. Noah’s flood brought them to a whole new part of the world they had never seem. Now on the other hand the flood God brought on the first earth age destroyed the entire heave and the earth and there was not one man left alive. (2Peter 3:5-7).
George, could you read the post “Who perished in the flood?” and tell me how it is not true? If it is true, then this whole doctrine is nonsense.
Also on the global flood recorded in Genesis: http://jacklamb.name/2007/01/03/genesis-7-9-the-wicked-get-wet-noahs-flood/
Regarding races: God made two people in the beginning – Adam & Eve. Where did the races come from? Here’s a good answer – http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/are-there-different-races
God made man (Adam without the article) on the 6th day in Genesis1:26-31. In Genesis 2:1 reads as thus: “Thus the heaveans and the earth were finished and all the host of them”. The key word here is HOST.
H6635 צְבָאָה צָבָא tsâbâʼ tsebâʼâh tsaw-baw’, tseb-aw-aw’ From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship):—appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).
On the 7th day He rested. On the 8th day (new beginnings) He formed man (with the article). eth Adam meaning the man. The one whose decendants Christ would come. Adam (with the article) in Genesis 2 was formed from the dust of the ground. It was the daughters of this man Adam that the sons of God went into to try and corrupt the blood line that Christ would come theough (Gen.6) The man Adam (without the article) in Genesis 1 was created and simply means mankind.
Host simply refers to everything God made in the heavens and earth. For example host of stars…
Usage determines the meaning of words. The context of this word has nothing to do with armies or war. There are no armies or war mentioned anywhere in context.
When we chase the word host back to the Hebrew, first and foremost it means ” a mass of persons”
George, the definitions in Strong’s could be compared to a small dictionary that you purchase at a dollar store. The definitions are adequate but far from complete. If you read Strong’s introduction to the dictionary, he acknowledges his point in the dictionary is brevity. Here’s the entry for the same word in a fuller lexicon: 7372 II. צָבָא (ṣā∙ḇā(ʾ)): n.masc.; ≡ Str 6635; TWOT 1865a, 1865b—1. LN 55.7-55.13 army, host, i.e., a military congregation as a large fighting unit (1Sa 12:9), note: for MT text in Zec 9:8, see 5166; 2. LN 55.7-55.13 division, i.e., a smaller unit of a total army (Nu 1:3); 3. LN 11.1-11.11 divisions, i.e., a subjnct.-group of civilian persons in relationship to a whole group (Ex 7:4); 4. LN 11.1-11.11 large group, vast array, i.e., a huge amount of persons, creatures, spirit beings, or objects all of the same class (Ge 2:1; Dt 4:19; 1Ki 22:19); 5. LN 35.19-35.30 service, i.e., the rendering of assistance and help for duties (Nu 4:3, 23); 6. LN 55.2-55.6 battle, skirmish, i.e., an individual fight with an enemy as part of a larger war (Nu 31:4); 7. LN 22.15-22.20 trouble, hard service, i.e., the experiencing of hardship and trouble in the midst of service (Job 7:1; 14:14); 8. LN 1.26-1.33 stars, i.e., points of light seen in the night sky (Dt 17:3), note: often believed to embody or represent deities; 9. LN 12.1-12.42 the Almighty, i.e., a title of God (1Sa 1:3); 10. LN 55.14-55.22 unit: עַם הַ־ צָבָא (ʿǎm hǎ- ṣā∙ḇā(ʾ))2 soldier, formally, people of the army, i.e., one in military service (Nu 31:32); 11. LN 55.14-55.22 unit: שַׂר צָבָא (śǎr ṣā∙ḇā(ʾ))2 commander, formally, prince of the army, i.e., one in military service as an officer (Dt 20:9); 12. LN 55.14-55.22 unit: עַל הַ־ צָבָא (ʿǎl hǎ- ṣā∙ḇā(ʾ))2 commander-in-chief, formally, over the army, i.e., one as the head of the entire army (1Ki 4:4); 13. LN 6.29-6.40 unit: כְּלִי צָבָא (kelî ṣā∙ḇā(ʾ))2 weapon, formally, vessel of war, i.e., any of the offensive instruments armies use to kill the enemy (1Ch 12:38[EB 37])
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament), electronic ed. (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), DBLH 7372, #13.
I was reading your definition of the word host and you are saying the exact thing I said. A mass of persons or an army are what ever you want to call it, it all happened on the 6th day.
The Nephilim, or “Giants”
Genesis 6
The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (with the article) are called in Genesis 6, N e-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah’s Word (Genesis 3:15).
This was why the Flood was brought “upon the world of the ungodly” (2Peter 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).
But we read of the Nephilim again in Numbers 13:33 : “there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim”. How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood? The answer is contained in Genesis 6:4, where we read: “There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (that is to say, in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Hebrew gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown” (literally, men of the name, that is to say, who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).
So that “after that”, that is to say, after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as “the nations of Canaan”. It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.
As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: “The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land.” And in Genesis 14:5 they were already known as “Rephaim” and “Emim”, and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim.
In chapter 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: “Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites” (Genesis 15:19-21; compare Exodus 3:8, 17; 23:23. Deuteronomy 7; 20:17. Joshua 12:8).
These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:17. Joshua 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Joshua 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judges 1:19,20,28,29,30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.
As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from one Anak which came of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:22,33), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them.
From Deuteronomy 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (verse 20,21) and Avim, etc.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned: but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as “dead”, “deceased”, or “giants”. These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isaiah 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered “deceased”, and verse 19, where it is rendered “the dead”).
It is rendered “dead” seven times (Job 26:5. Psalm 88:10. Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isaiah 14:8; 26:19).
It is rendered “deceased” in Isaiah 26:14.
It is retained as proper name “Rephaim” ten times (two being in the margin). Genesis 14:5; 15:20. Joshua 12:15 (margin). 2 Samuel 5:18, 22; 23:13, 1Chronicles 11:15; 14:9; 20:4. Isaiah 17:5.
In all other places it is rendered “giants” , Genesis 6:4, Numbers 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor .
By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.
It is certain that the second irruption took place before Genesis 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently “Ashtaroth Karnaim”; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Genesis 14:5).
Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak’s father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Genesis 35:27. Joshau 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Abrahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deuteronomy 2:10, 11, 21, 22, 23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Numbers 12:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deuteronomy 3:11).
Their strength is seen in “the giant cities of Bashan” to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem.
Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by Egyptian Pharaohs of the nineteenth dynasty.
If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in “the giant cities of Bashan” which exist, as such, to this day?
Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the “men of renown,” the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the “heroes” of Genesis 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.
Thus the Babylonian “Creation Tablets”, the Egyptian “Book of the dead”, the Greek mythology, and heathen Comogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.
So, you see the word host of Genesis 2:1 has a lot to do with war and preparing for battle and this why you are suppose, to put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6: 11-14) and the truth is, there is a demon seed and satan is a liar.
Jack,
This might interest you. We know that Enoch from whom Noah came. Preached, taught and prophysied against those very angels that came in Gensis 6. This book was written long before Noah or the Flood. The book of Enoch was part of the Bible and inserted behind the book of Job which is the oldest book of the Bible. During the Canonizing of the Bible it was removed by no other than the Kenites. You decide if it is truth or myth. This text is from the Book Of Enoch. By the way the book of Jude came from this very text.
VI-XI. The Fall of the Angels: the Demoralization of Mankind: the Intercession of the Angels on behalf of Mankind. The Dooms pronounced by God on the Angels of the Messianic Kingdom– (a Noah fragment).
***George, I edited this to remove the extensive quote. A link to the material would be sufficient & is preferred to copying and pasting. I am aware of the Book of Enoch & trust that the Scripture is complete and sufficient (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
George, I’d also love your comments on my most recent post: http://jacklamb.name/2010/04/03/did-a-pre-adamic-race-exist-on-earth/
If you look at the Greek and Hebrew Dictionary and it doesn’t matter what version, look under H6633 and H6635. I agree that host could mean what you said, but in that particular verse it means just what it says. A mass of Persons.
George
Context determines the meaning of the word. What in the context makes you feel like it must mean that God created many other people? There is no mention of other people; to understand host to mean that could only be done if you bring that idea to the text – it is not in the text.
George, I would appreciate it if you just answered my remarks instead of pasting in huge chunks of text. This makes it difficult for others to follow the conversation. So, What in the context of Genesis 2 makes you feel like it must mean that God created many other people?
Edited by Jack
deleted for only containing personal insults…
Kendall,
Your comment is being deleted. You have not answered the post only tried to insult.